Karlovy Vary 2024 Interview: FINGERNAILS, Christos Nikou Talks Yorgos Lanthimos and Greek Weirdness

The Karlovy Vary International Film Festival picked Christos Nikou's oddball romance Fingernails as the closing film for its 58th edition.

Nikou arrived for the closing ceremony and Screen Anarchy had a chance to meet with the rising director, who made his name with his debut, Apples. His sophomore feature Fingernails got picked up by Apple TV+.

Nikou opened up about the process how Fingernails got made with help from Cate Blanchett, the influence of Charlie Kaufman, rom-coms and the inevitable topic, Yorgos Lanthimos, with whom Nikou worked early in his career.

Screen Anarchy: What drove you to explore the idea of testing love through such a literal and painful process in FINGERNAILS?

Christos Nikou: First and foremost, love is painful. We wanted to explore something that evokes a bit of fear, similar to how love can be daunting nowadays. With all that's happening—dating apps, how people experience love, the way they seek partners by simply touching a screen—it’s a bit unsettling.

I read a study recently that found the average person touches their phone screen 20,617 times per day. Many of these touches are driven by love. That honestly scares me a little. We aimed to test the notion of love, to see if it's something that needs to be proven or if it’s simply meant to be felt.

Did you write FINGERNAILS parallell with APPLES?

When we finished Apples, it was during the pandemic, so I didn't travel to festivals as they were all happening online. We started writing the script three months before the world premiere in Venice. Yes, and we continued for the next six to seven months. It was easy to focus on writing during that time since I had no other obligations and was just at home.

But did you write it on spec, or were you already commissioned to do the film?

No, no. I wrote it on spec. We had the idea and the treatment of the story when I was in Venice. That’s when many producers approached us, asking if we had a script for our next project. I was already working with an English writer on this.

Had those producers already seen APPLES?

Yes. Cate Blanchett also showed up in Venice. She asked for a meeting and told me she wanted to be in my next film. I told her I had a story in mind but no role for her. She then asked if she could produce it, and I said maybe. We had other offers too, but I decided to go with her because I really admired her.

And Apple TV came on board thanks to Cate Blanchett?

No, this happened later. When we finished the script, we approached Jesse Buckley and Riz Ahmed for the two main roles. We started collaborating with Film Nation, which is a sales agent, and took the project to Cannes. We had offers from many companies at the Cannes market.

European or American?

No, American distributors. I mean, like Apple. And we decided to go with Apple.

And then you shot it in Greece.

No, we shot it in Canada.

The aesthetics of FINGERNAILS is slightly different compared to APPLES.

Yeah, yeah, a little bit.

So did you already know that the film will need to have more mainstream appeal because of the Apple TV deal?

No, not at all. I didn’t care about that. We shot it on 35mm. We could narrate the story in a slightly more mainstream way sometimes, with camera moves and such, because we didn’t have the opportunity in Apples due to the budget.

But I don’t think we tried to make something overly mainstream. Of course, with the actors and the story, it feels a bit more mainstream than Apples. But I always try to find the right balance between mainstream and arthouse, to be honest.

I am curious whether FINGERNAILS would look different if it were a purely independent movie without the Apple TV deal. Would you have shot it the same way?

I think that if the movie didn’t have the Apple brand and had another distributor, it might have been approached differently by the audience.

So that means you got notes for the shooting, from the distributor?

Oh, no, no, no. They didn’t touch the film.

Okay, so they haven’t touched the film. I’m just saying that if the brand was another company, people might have viewed it differently. So you think that the brand can change the perception of the movie sometimes?

Uh-huh.

And you’re okay with that?

I think that’s just how people view movies. For example, there are distributors that people love, even if the movie isn’t great. I wouldn’t name any specifically, but there are companies whose films are seen because of their reputation. Even if the movie is just good, they still have a following.

You combine retro aesthetics with a near-future setting, which was also the case in APPLES, making it a sort of staple in your work. Could you elaborate on what led you to this visual and temporal blend for FINGERNAILS?

In both films, we aim to create a setting that feels like it’s from the recent past. Of course, it’s an allegory, a conceptual story. At the same time, we’re making comments about how technology has recently impacted our lives.

For example, in Apples, you don’t need to save anything in your mind anymore because everything is saved on your phone. And most of the time, these phones come from the company Apple. We’re putting our memories into these devices. In Fingernails, it’s about how often we touch the screen and look for love through dating apps.

But there are no screens in FINGERNAILS.

Exactly, and that’s why we wanted to create something that exists only in the minds of people. It would have been easy to show it directly with phones in both films, but I wanted to emphasize that everything is in our minds, not in these devices.

I like what you said about both films being allegorical and conceptual. In FINGERNAIL, you’re also challenging some romantic tropes. How did you balance audience expectations with subverting those tropes?

To be honest, the film was promoted as a rom-com, which it isn’t. I do love rom-coms.

Which ones, for example?

I love Notting Hill, which we reference in the movie. I love everything Richard Curtis has written. When Harry Met Sally is another favorite. Many of these classics from the 1990s. But I feel we’ve lost the art of great rom-coms, like Sandra Bullock’s films. What we tried to do was create something funny and romantic but in a different way, with a fresh approach. I hope the audience will recognize these romantic tropes.

Did you have the audience of rom-coms in mind when constructing the story?

No, not at all. We just focused on the story we wanted to tell. Honestly, I don’t know who the right audience for this film is. We try to combine many different genres. I'm not a big fan of movies that are only one thing. I love when movies can do many things together, so that's what we aimed for.

So did you consciously engineer the story and beats around certain tropes, or was it more of a subconscious approach regarding romance and genre?

No, it was just the story we wanted to tell. The only thing I consistently focused on was the tone of the film. I call this tone in both films a "melancholic smile tone". Maintaining the right tone was crucial. I'm not a big fan of horror films, so we never aimed to make the nail-ripping scenes feel like horror.

You've mentioned influences like Charlie Kaufman and Spike Jonze in interviews. Could you elaborate on their specific influence on your movie or work?

What I love about them is how they create conceptual stories that feel very grounded. For instance, Spike Jonze’s Her or Charlie Kaufman's Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, even The Truman Show, which I really love.

These movies strike a great balance between comedy and drama. They are conceptual yet grounded, making you feel the emotions deeply. These films manage to be somewhat arthouse while also having mainstream appeal. They strike a perfect balance, and that's what we strive for.

And how did you see Jessie Buckley, Riz Ahmed, and Jeremy Allen White, who is now a big star because of THE BEAR, in your script?

When we finished the script, we approached Jessie and Riz, and they both said yes. They were our first choices, and it was really exciting to work with them. I’ve always admired them as actors. Then we needed to find the third person to complete the triangle, aiming for balance.

It would have been easy to cast someone who would make Jeremy's character appear more mean, someone who seemed like they didn't care about her at all. But I loved having Jeremy because he's a very warm, nice guy and a great actor. When I saw the first season of The Bear, I immediately knew he was the one. So we approached him, and he said yes right off the bat.

He didn't need much persuasion?

No, no, no. He actually had a busy schedule. He had to decline another movie—I can't say which one—to do Fingernails. I really appreciated that.

Did that mean you were able to do all the rehearsals?

We did some rehearsals before shooting, but not as many as we would have liked because everyone was busy. However, we worked a lot on set.

How did you organize that on set?

I love incorporating music on set. Before shooting each scene, and between takes, I always play music. I choose one song for every scene, which helps create the tone. The whole crew and all the actors listen to the same song, so we all get into the mood of the scene together.

Is this also how you did it for APPLES?

I tried it in Apples for a few scenes, and it worked very well. In Fingernails, I did it for almost the whole film.

You mentioned the themes of identity and memory in APPLES and FINGERNAILS. There is a shift because APPLES has a more existential tone, which isn't as prominent in FINGERNAILS, even though it is melancholic.

This existential tone is also pretty crucial for your colleagues in Greece. Babis Makridis, for example, has a similar tone. Is this something nationally anchored, or is it another influence on you and your Greek colleagues?

I don't know if it's something we're doing collectively. I don’t believe, first of all, that there is a Greek New Wave as a defined genre.

Every Greek director says this.

Yes, I know that every director says that, but they’re saying it because they want to feel more original. We all want to feel original and unique. But to be honest, I think it’s a bit of lazy work from journalists sometimes.

Yorgos Lanthimos and Efthimis Filippou, the duo behind Dogtooth and Alps, created a specific tone that caught the attention of film festivals. For about five or six years, all the big festivals had at least one Greek film, and not all of them were good.

Some directors were trying to copy Yorgos's style instead of finding their own voice, which led to this so-called Greek New Wave. But it’s not really a wave. It's more like a specific style that Yorgos and Efthimis perfected, and others tried to emulate.

Your Greek colleagues hate the term Greek Weird Wave, arguing there's nothing weird about those movies.

Yes, some of their movies are weird, but it’s not a collective wave. Yorgos and Efthimis have a unique style and tone, and some people tried to copy it. That’s it. I think it’s finished now. People are not doing that anymore because it doesn’t work for festivals anymore, so they are trying to find other ways to get into festivals.

So it was basically a two-men wave. Since you mentioned Lanthimos, I have to ask: on a scale of one to ten, how much does it piss you off when people ask you about Lanthimos and compare your styles?

I don't care, to be honest. From one to ten, I would say four.

But you still get the question.

Yes, I get the questions and it's annoying because, first of all, I don't have much to say. I worked with him on Dogtooth, but I haven't talked to him for nine years. I love Dogtooth and The Lobster. I don't know why there's that connection, other than we’re both from Greece. He's doing great, much more successful in terms of actors, budget, everything.

He also shifted from the Greek environment to the international UK and US scene, and now you are in the international scene as well.

Yes. I don't know what to say. It's like asking me about Denis Villeneuve or Pablo Larraín. There's no direct connection.

The implication was whether you think he opened doors for Greek filmmakers to the global stage.

He did, especially at the beginning. Because of Dogtooth, all the film festivals started showing Greek films. But there was a period of three or four years when big festivals weren't selecting Greek movies as much anymore. That wave had ended, and the trend of selecting Greek movies faded.

Are you going to continue with international productions?

I hope so, yes, if it's possible.

Are you working on new projects?

Yes, we are working on the next one.

A feature film?

Yes, a feature film.

Can you share more details?

Sure. The only thing I can tell you is that it’s a movie about three extras who are playing in famous movies from 1984. It's about how we all try to be protagonists in our lives, but we are still extras in this world.

Are you thinking about changing the melancholic tone and retro-futuristic aesthetics, or will it have the same style?

No, it will have the same style.

So this is your signature style now?

I mean, it’s not necessarily my signature or trademark. I believe I can direct many different things.

But you just do films now?

Yes, yes. I write and direct them if possible. That’s what I want.

Some directors, in between their independent productions, do commercial work.

No, that’s not the case for me.

So no commercial work or series?

Well, we are doing Apples as a TV series. It was announced two years ago, and we’re still in the process. But mainly, I’m focused on creating my own stories.

What would you say is your trademark, if not a specific aesthetic?

I think the tone is my trademark, the "melancholic smile" tone. It reflects who I am as a person, so I try to make films that are close to my own tone and way of being.

Cinematography is crucial. How do you establish the style with your cinematographer?

Yes, it’s a great collaboration. In both films, especially the last one with Marcell Rév, it was very natural. We talked the same language and found the right tone easily.

Did it take long to find the right tone, or was it natural?

It came naturally for both of us. We don’t have the same personalities, but he adapted very easily to the tone I had in mind.

So you do storyboards or meticulous preparation?

No, we don’t do storyboards. We write a shot list of what we’d like to do based on the locations and production needs. But on set, we’re flexible and open to changes, capturing the moment and what works best.

Are you open to actors' suggestions if they want to try something different from your original vision?

Yes, if it doesn’t work, I’ll explain and try to align with my vision. But I’m always open to their input. For Fingernails, we stayed close to the script, but there were small things the actors brought in that we adapted.

Can you give an example of something that came from Jessie Buckley, Riz Ahmed, or Jeremy Allen White?

Nothing specific comes to mind, but I always let the actors have the first take to see what they bring. If I like something, I adapt it into my vision. It varies depending on the scene and the actor.

How many takes do you usually do for one scene?

It depends. With Jessie, we often did one or two takes because she was very fast. With Jeremy, it was similar. Riz liked to try different things, so sometimes we did five, six, or seven takes.

That's still very few takes. What was the most complicated scene in the movie?

I think the most complicated scene, in terms of how it goes in the script and how it was working, was the kiss scene. We found that it wasn't working at all on set, so we changed it completely. We tried to shoot it as it was written, but it wasn't working, so we adapted it right there on set.

What about technically? What was the most complicated scene?

The car scenes were very hard to do. In Toronto, they aren't very good at blocking and emptying streets, and we didn't want to show modern cars. I was surprised that a big production couldn't manage this better. It was quite challenging.

How would you compare the shooting experience in Canada versus Greece?

In Greece, it’s a bit more guerrilla style, mostly due to budget constraints and the way we shoot. There’s much more flexibility. For example, on Apples, we had to change locations quickly because of parked cars, and we managed to move 25 people to a new location within ten minutes.

In Fingernails, making such a change would have taken three hours because of the 100 people involved, all the trucks, and needing permissions for everything. In Greece, you can shoot almost anywhere without needing so many permissions.

The film screened recently at the 2024 Karlovy Vary International Film Festival. The title photo (c) Karlovy Vary Film Servis.